Are bare breasts nudity?

2005-09-29 [Guardian of Light]: [Mom] Ha ive been driving for a year now and not a single wreck or ticket...wait would a telephone pole count? ( was backing out of a friends driveway and the driver's side blinker got knocked out and it was hanging there like a eyeball.)

2005-09-29 [Sir. Robert]: I've been driving for almost 2 years now with no accidents...and i dont have a girlfriend

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: i have to say, if the person in question (whether drawn, painted or photographed) has no clothing on, yes, it is nudity. does that make it bad? no. but nudity is defined as:The state of being without clothing or covering of any kind. so if its uncovered, its nudity. 

2005-09-29 [Guardian of Light]: what makes it bad: the way we have been tought, and raised tell us that it is bad so therefore we are programed to believe it is bad.

2005-09-29 [Sir. Robert]: I have only one problem debating this...I dont fully understand the question (they need to be more specific or explain how broad their question is) :P

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: Agrees on that, [Sir. Robert].

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: I have a bf, I have been with him for little more than a year. I love how he respects me. He views the "breasts" thing the same as [Mom], [Sir. Robert], and [Guardian of Light]

2005-09-29 [Guardian of Light]: Well everybody its been fun but i have to go to do some work. ill be back later. and thanks [I'm gone gone gone]

2005-09-29 [Shade's Cabin]: I agree with Mom about people showing 'themselves' off on their houses. Nudity in a drawing or sketch or painting is a display of beauty as much as skill. Just taking a photo of yourself naked for the purpose of showing yourself off... yeah, not art and not for a public house for sure!

2005-09-29 [Sir. Robert]: I've been with elftown for a little while now...and I'm rather proud of the small things I have done here. I would love to show off the site and what i've done to my mom, but I dont think she would see naked people as acceptable.

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: Yeah, exactly. Take is easy Guardian :)

2005-09-29 [Shade's Cabin]: I do a lot of drawings of women... and most are topless (sometimes just cuz i really suck at drawing cloth) I have gotten flak for it in the past from kids online here that dont want to see that sort of thing. *Shrugs* What do you tell them, dont look? This place was meant to be an art community, but has become a dumping ground for horny kids mostly now, most of which dont draw anyway...

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: The pictures, does anyone know if this discussion is about the "this is how I look like" pictures in the houses or about art like drawings.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Sorry, but this "artistic nudity" view is crap. If you photograph or depict nudity, it's art. Porn, believe it or not, is art. Art is the creative expression of emotions and ideas. If someone posts breasts because they're horny, it's still art. They're still expressing themselves. So you either allow breasts altogether or not at all. None of this "I show my breasts because I'm an artist" crap. If you show your breasts or draw breasts or whatever, it's the same as porn. It doesn't matter if your intentions are good.

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: Yup... I think we all have a decent grasp of the sit.... those of us that are here talking atleast. As for the little horny immature boys... they need a swift kick in the.. ...........

2005-09-29 [Whim]: No, the horny immature boys are not really at fault. Most boys are like that at that age. Hell, many MEN are like that their entire life. If you have nudity of any kind posted, expect horny folks. You're dumb and naive if you expect nothing but respect when you post nudity on your house.

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: Yup, I agree with that... I just tend to not like immature little kids, sorry, didn't mean to discriminate there.

2005-09-29 [Sir. Robert]: hehe...Looks like you guys are doin ok in here *gets off [Mom]'s soapbox* see ya later...hope you make a good decision

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: ... meh

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Well, all I'm saying is that if you want the freedom to post nudity, then know that you'll have an unstoppable wave of horny cybering kids camping on Elftown. If you choose to ban all nudity from Elftown, then you lose a little bit of your creative freedom. Either way, you can't say "oh these breasts are bad, but these over here are good cause I said so." If you can give a good reason why "artistic breasts" are so much more acceptable than "horny breasts," please do tell me. I'd love to hear an explination that isn't complete BS.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: Now, is it presentation pictures or art we're talking about here? I think we're slipping away from the real subject when we're talking about how we've been raised to think in a certain way or why boys think breasts are sexy.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Does it really matter how the breasts are presented? I think the poll is talking about breasts in general, but the general public is trying to say that presentation pictures and art have different kinds of breasts.

2005-09-29 [geekinpink]: << i dissagree with having a warning on every picture with a boob in it. that just makes people want to look. >>  So? If you clicked on the profile, you're going to look anyway. This is for people who don't want to see it. For legal reasons, after thinking about it, only drawings of such material should be allowed. If it's a picture of a topless chick, then mods step in.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: Myself, I think there's a difference between a picture of a living woman showing her breasts and a drawing with breasts in it.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: i actuaally agree with whim. :/ if you say that "horny boobs" are not allowed, then you have to go deeper and define what constitutes a horny boob vs an art boob. that gets you deep into the censorship waters, as you then have to define art. and art is too subjective to have clear lines drawn about it in that way. :/

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: kim: so.. just because its a photo it isnt art?

2005-09-29 [Whim]: There's only a difference, Kim, if the artist sucks at drawing breasts...hehe. Seriously though, the only difference is the fact that they may be a different color or texture than real breasts. But some of the artists on this site are pretty damn good, so they can draw some damn fine breasts. If I draw stick figures with circles on them, then yeah, there's a difference, but when someone tries to draw the best breasts they possibly can and succeed, I don't see the difference.

2005-09-29 [geekinpink]: Hanhepi, every guy here knows the difference between nude art and porn.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: No, I don't mean it like that. Of course a photo is art if there has been work and effort put into it. I'm just thinking there is a difference between the pictures you put up in your house to show what you look like and pictures you add to show artistic skill.

2005-09-29 [T_Pop]: well if you want to go there then you will find yourself in a problem becouse people can view anything as art

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: Yeah. They should. If not, then they have the problem, not the person who posted it.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Geek, every guy in this wiki, maybe, but not every horny teenage boy. If they see boobs, they immediately think sex--which leads to touching themselves, which I won't go into.

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: ... I don't want to hear anymore either.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Yes, Angel, it is the viewer's problem, but there are MANY viewers with problems in that case. Those viewers who have problems are the reason this poll and wiki exist. If everyone was cool with it and kept their hands out of their pants, we wouldn't have this poll or this wiki.

2005-09-29 [I'm gone gone gone]: I know, I just think it's sad that we have to stoop this low to limit the perverted minds and actions of people. ... In general, I hate people.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: hehe...I know how you feel. But truthfully, we don't have to stoop this low. We could just allow any and all nudity--but it would result in endless battles.

2005-09-29 [miami 71]: i just think this websight should be free site 4 teens...what started this in the1st place huh,no affense to the guards andto the people whosaid no i think they should go2 hell

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: I don't think I understand what you're saying, [miami 71].

2005-09-29 [Whim]: There's no reason why this site should be meant for teens. It was never meant for teens. It was meant for artists. It just happens to have themes that appeal to teens.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: if you want a place that is just a fre site for teens, go somewhere else. try neopets. if you want a free site for artists, fantasy artists in particular, and people who enjoy art, stick around and enjoy. this site is not, nor was it ever, just for teens.

2005-09-29 [Konobi]: What it all comes down to, people, is if you're baring breasts as artistic nudity. Wouldn't that be acceptable? No one wants to come to a Fantasy Art website to see pornographic material. This is about art. I think it would be alright, as long was it is within art context, and not just 'showing off'.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: That would be dandy, Konobi, if there was a clear line between art and porn. But, alas, there is not. As I said before, porn could be considered art in its own right.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: and just because something is drawn (or painted or whatever) does not automagicaly make it "not porn". and i agree with the no public porn rule here. this site wasn't made for porn, just like it wasn't made for teens. i have seen some really great porn that was drawn, but that doesnt make it appropreate for public display on et. but just because it was porn doesnt mean it wasnt art either. and whim: whats wrong with stick figures with circles on them? lol ;)

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: I agree, [Konobi].

2005-09-29 [Kuruni]: for me is as simple as this, there are minors in here, Elf Town is not a place to try to convince teens that nudes are not porn, So most boobs are considered somehow "porn" and sex related, sexual content leads to certain behaviors, so if Elf Town allows boobs all the way and arround, then ET must be censored for tennagers sake and their parents. Not everyone is open minded and there are a lot of crazy girls who would make a boob party of ET in a sec. This is a place for art. Maybe people who have nudes on their wikis can grant a password to certain people to enter and see it, but cannot figure that out clearly. Teens can lie too to enter to see "boobs" and not see it as art, this is a mess

2005-09-29 [The Sandman is Back]: I say so them but put a warnin on the to of the area its shown

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Oh, there's nothing wrong with stick figures with circles on them. I love stick figures of any variety. I'm just saying there's actually a difference between those breasts and real breasts...hehe. And truthfully, I think porn should be allowed on Elftown, but ONLY in certain areas and in a highly regulated fashion. As you said, there's some really great porn that was drawn, so rather than block that type or art, perhaps just keeping it carefully tucked away is acceptable.

2005-09-29 [runnybabbit]: I don't think porn should be allowed, but /artistic/ nudity is perfectly fine for me. Really, one could tell the difference between the two. But I do think there should be a clear warning on every wiki/house page, so that people know what they are getting into. Of course, most of the artistic nudity /does/ have a warning on it.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: so, in short, just because people think all boobs are porn related, you think we either shouldnt allow boobs, or we shouldn't allow minors? that is hardly fair to either the artists or the minors. :/

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: I think something like that is posted in the rules, [Whim]. That pictures not meant for young people to see are to be placed on separate wikis that are not reachable except by those who knows the name of the wiki.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: I think even the artistic nudity should be kept on wikis--possibly even private wikis. I personally have no problem with any type of nudity, but since a lot of people do and a lot of people cause problems due to behavior influence by nudity, it would be beneficial to Elftown as a whole to keep all nudity off of the houses.

2005-09-29 [Mom]: If it is viewed only for the purpose of attracting the opposite sex I don't think we can fairly call that art.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: hehe...I've truthfully never read the rules, Kim. Says a lot about the people who constantly break the rules if I manage to stick around here.

2005-09-29 [*|-Worthless |Heartache-|*]: people should be able to express their ways.. and their hormones.. lol \

2005-09-29 [*|-Worthless |Heartache-|*]: people should be able to express their ways.. and their hormones.. lol

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: whim: whew! thought for a seccond my stick figures were a bad thing. :) an again, i agree with the rest of your post. i don't think ive ever agreed with you on anything before. :/ i still do not see the point of a warning. if you are that uptight about maybe seeing a boob or *gasp* a nipple, perhaps you shouldnt ever look bbelow your own neck, or the necks of others, and steer clear of anything done by the "masters" like davinci, michalangelo, van goh etc.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: But they should also think of what the viewer will think of it, [*|-Worthless |Heartache-|*]

2005-09-29 [Mom]: [*|-Worthless |Heartache-|*]....Question...what is your artistic contribution to ET?

2005-09-29 [Kuruni]: oh great, allow porn here, another porn site? what for, there are tons of them out there, if you want porn or "hentai" then make your own and post it on you own site. 

2005-09-29 [Whim]: I consider art to be any expression of yourself. Does that mean that a teenage girl who goes the mall and takes snapshots of her friends with a disposable camera is an artist? Yes. Does that mean that when you choose a particular outfit in order to look good for a date that you're an artist? Absolutely. I know it sounds like I'm using the word "art" loosely, but this is just the nature of art. Art exists in everything we do. It's arrogant of any supposedly trained or practiced artist to think otherwise.

2005-09-29 [geekinpink]: I made a comment a few pages ago berating women who are clueless as to how guys think, and why a breast could *gasp* possibly be associated with sex. Hanhepi, you fit right under that group of women. The only thing women should be commenting on here is if they are or aren't directly offended by it. Most guys associate breasts with sex. This isn't weird. This is normal. The overwhelming majority of ETers are teenagers. As such, you should be very limited to what you can do involving breasts on this website. Disclaimer: I'm not saying they should be outright banned.  

2005-09-29 [GleamofDreams]: I do not think porn should be on this site, but just breasts is fine, not genitals, nothing else too permiscuous. I personally like drawing bare breasts in my art. i mean if a kid wants porn, there are plenty of sites that im sure will have a much better selection anyways...i just dont think that breasts, just breasts, in a picture, is really porn...

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: mom: good call, and i agree. but how do we then go about deciding what someone's intent was behind the picture? would a pretty naked lady reclining on a couch be seductive enough to be concidered "just trying to attract the opposite sex"? what if it was an ugly woman? do we tell the ugly one that she cant put her pic up, while we tell the pretty one its ok? what about the other way arround?

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: "If it is a secret wiki-page (No link from your presentation or open forum), you can inline what you want." That was copied from the Uploading Art Rules, I don't know for how long that rule has existed, but at least since the moment before I joined elftown, which was a while ago. So if I understand this rule correct, then porn is allowed if it is kept away from publik eyes.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Well, I think we can all agree that fat chicks aren't allowed to post their boobs under any circumstances, right? (That was a joke. Laugh...)

2005-09-29 [Sweet Edith.]: my brother is 11! for heavens sake, who walks around naked in public? I mean if a mojority of people did then okay, its perfectly normal but it isnt its sleezy and inappropriate and if people want to make porn, sell it on ebay not on here

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: The question is: should this rule be changed? And how should it be changed?

2005-09-29 [I Am One]: Yeah....I think that nudity is a part of life: you can't avoid it no matter what (unless you're stuck on an island by yourself with convenient elftown access, like me)

2005-09-29 [Gilfer Iron Knight]: i agree with hanhepi, but i think we should alow it bacause it shows the artistic side of the person who drawn the woman.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: I think... that it isn't really that big of a deal. I dunno... Perhaps we could just have an option in the "change member data" to "Post breast warning." I personally don't associate breasts directly with sex, but perhaps I'm just naive.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Then i think it should remain that way, Kim, and naked breasts should be added to the rule. Bare breasts is nudity, there's no way around that. So keep it on a private wiki then so no one can complain.

2005-09-29 [Kuruni]: [Sweet Edith.] EXACTLY!!

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: I no longer allow my 11 year old sister on Elftown. A year ago I would have been fine with her wandering around here willy nilly. But look what Elftown has become! Yes, nudity can be artistic. But do you really think an 11 year old is going to see it that way? Do you really think they'll understand the difference between artistic nudity and pornographic nudity? No, they wont. Elftown is supposed to be for all ages. But now it's becoming a home for sleazy, slutty, horny people. It's really sad. And it's things like this (yes, even if they are artistic) that attract those perverted horny people here with only the intention of getting people to show their breasts or genitals on webcam.

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: I think artistic nudity is fine. But YES it should be kept at least somewhat tucked away.

2005-09-29 [geekinpink]: Agreed with Whim. Tyrana, it's nice to see a woman wise enough to see that. I can understand why a woman wouldn't associate breasts with sex for the same reason I don't associate big manly guys with sex, but again, this topic is mainly about how it affects men/boys.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: geek: i would probably be able to supprise you with my knowledge about "how guys think". concidering i'm married to one and 99% of my real life friends are guys. i totally see how you could think most guys consider alll boobs sexual.  not all guys think with their neither regions ( a lot do. but not all.) and as a woman, what I find offencive is guys telling me what i should and should not say. hell, i find it offencive when a guy thinks just because he has an outtie and women dont, it gives him the right to dictate what should and should not be said and by whom.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: whim :P what if shes skinny and ugly? and what if the fat chick has.. has like really huge knockers? maybe we should only allow really smalll boobs to be posted, since flatchested women arn't sexy (jokinng). my question to the others: what are 11 year olds doing on the internet with no adult supervision???

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Well, in geek's defence, han, while there's nothing at all wrong with a woman saying whatever she wants to say, it is true that most women underestimate just how easily aroused most guys can be. Sure, if you're married and have lots of guy friends, you have some insight into the male mind, but there's a lot of things guys aren't going to outwardly admit to any woman. And if most of the guys you associate with really don't see breasts as directly sexual, then I bet anything that there's another non-sexual part of the female body that they associate with sex.

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: In answer to your question hanhepi, you would be surprised the access children have to the internet. Some of my neighbors let their 5 and 6 year olds online without much supervision. It's just the way the world is nowadays.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Well, obviously, skinny ugly chicks are allowed to be nude if they cover their face. And flatchested chicks are still sexy--it just takes more nudity to make up for their lack of breasts.  Anywho, I think this site has a responsibility to protect its public, but at the same time, you're right, 11 year olds shouldn't be on the internet without adult supervision. In fact, no one under the age of 18 should be using the internet without their parents being at least somewhat aware of what their children are doing.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: I think parents let 6-11 year olds be on the internet unsupervised because... well... I don't really think children that age are searching for places where they are not allowed.

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: well it's also not just about age. My good friend Deidre just turned 15 at the end of August and I keep forgetting she's only 16. Her maturity level is that of a 17 or 18 year old (at least!)

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Just because they're not searching doesn't mean they won't find bad things. It's rediculously easy to accidently find porn on the internet.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: Well... if that is the case, what with the associating non-sexual parts with sex... then we shouldn't really have any pictures at all, should we? :P... I do see your point, of course. Breasts are more commonly tabooish. Hmm... I don't know if they should be "tucked away," but it does seem like the safest way to go about it. Elftown with child locks? Perhaps we could have seen it coming eventually...

2005-09-29 [Kuruni]: just try to search for the word "mom" on google and thousands of porn sites will pop inmediately. Childre can acces anything.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: And what would the minimum age be, [Tyrana]?

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Maturity level is irrelevant. Parents should still be aware of what their children are doing. Of course, they should also be aware of what their own children can handle maturely. So I think a parent might be alright in allowing their 16 year old to look up porn if they know their child well enough to know that that child can handle such a thing.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: Hmm... yeah, that's true, [Whim] and [Kuruni]

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: in any case, the fact is that children will find their way around the internet. And it is our responsibility (as the mature "adult figures" on Elftown) to make sure that ELFtown (a community for artists, writers, and fantasy/sci-fi lovers) isnt one of the places where these young children will accidentally stumble onto nudity, artistic or not.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Well, Kim, not to speak for Tyrana, but the minimum age would almost have to be 18 since people under 18 can't pose nude because of actual real life laws that could get Elftown in trouble if broken and allowed.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: Thus the rule saying that kind of stuff are to be placed where people doesn't accidentally stumble across them.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: I'm not a parent... and I guess parents have all kinds of different expectations. I don't know how one would go about deciding who online is mature enough to handle something like artistic nudity. I could say, perhaps, that it is the decision of the parent. If they aren't even slightly aware of what their children do online, then... well... there are worse places than Elftown. I'm not saying every corner is wholesome, but I think the nude art warnings are sufficient, and if parents don't find it appropriate, then they should find a way to block sites that they find explicit.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: Hmm... that would cause me to be kicked out... I don't like that idea.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: Indeed. I agree with [Whim], methinks. Maturity is a person-to-person factor. It'll be hard to generalize something like that. Nearly impossible...

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: (If I understand your meaning correctly Tyrana) I agree that elftown's current nude art warnings are sufficient. Which is why I dont want a change.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: well, i hardly think et, or any site should be blamed for crappy parenting. aactually a lot of the guys i know have seen me drawing nudes and their comments are rarely on my composition, its usually "ooo boooobssss" or something like that. followed by laughing and then "ok a real boob isn't going to hang like that .. its going to do this." are they actually arroused? well there was no obvious signs, and there was adjusting going on. so i assume that if there was arrousal, it wasnt overly stimulating.

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: im sure all the poeple who voted to see breasts are horny teenagers,. this community is about fantasy not about nudeness, you have elfpack for that nonsense

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Exactly, Tyrana. It's the same with anything else. Video games, movies, TV, music, etc. Parents get upset when children gain access to these things, but they can only blame themselves if they do nothing to involve themselves in their children's lives.

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: the point of Elftown is that it was for people (fantasy lovers) of ALL ages. Many of my friends here are under 18 (16 and 17 year olds).

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: AGREED [Moonknight]!!

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: *17 year old*

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: I only recently turned 18 myself.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: hehe...hanhepi, they may not have been aroused, but that doesn't mean they didn't associate it with sex. Also, under different circumstances (such as being alone and not attempting to add helpful suggestions to the artist) they may be more likely to get aroused. That, or your pictures just aren't hot enough...hehe.

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: well, if children shouldnt see any nudity, keep them away from art! dont take them to art museums for sure.all those perverted artist renderings of the naked human form might warp their tiny little minds.

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: [Kelaria] you see there's too many horny kids (and some arent kids anymore :P ) here these days, what's this breasts nonsense? eeck, Im tired of seeing all the dark suicidal and half naked images everywhere, there should be another community called "emopack" for the "depressed" people, haha and all this breasts and nudity nonsense has its place in EP already. I even think the guards should be a little more strict with the stuff people post here.

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: *laugh*

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Right. Art museums are full of nudity. And note that any child under 16 is almost guarenteed to giggle when they see little penises on statues. Does that mean they're scarred for life? No. But it hardly illustrates their maturity towards nudity.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: Yeah, I'm 17. I don't plan on exposing my breasts to the individuals online. But I'm not bothered by looking at them. And it isn't really "a girl thing," either. I have yet to be completely ruffled by nude males. Artistic nudity has to be accepted at some time in life. It's everywhere. And sometimes it's incorperated in fantasy. It really is a maturity thing, I think.

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: I see your point hanhepi, but when children go to art museums the parents (or a teacher) is usually there to explain the art of it. And I dont know many parents who take their children under 14 to art museums with nudity. (perhaps a generalization, but often parents wouldnt expect their child to be interested or understand the art at all)

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: [hanhepi] that's nonsense, one thing is art and another is gratituous nudity that people post here to get cyber sex or to seem hot. art and nudity in art is subtle and expresses somehting, whereas here you see kids showing boobs or guys who are trying to show off their "muscles" to get attention from the opposite sex (or same sex)

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Well, even Elfpack has its rules about nudity, Moon. They're more relaxed about it since Elfpack is a relaxed community, but they still have certain rules. Elfpack could almost be considered the adult version of Elftown if it weren't for all the children running around there.

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: You're right [Moonknight].

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: its not the same to see the birth of afrodita painting than to see some kid showing her boobs openly in a photo saying "are my hot?"

2005-09-29 [Whim]: But if some kid recreates the afrodita painting and writes "Aren't I hot?" is it acceptable?

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: What are the chances of that ever happening, [Whim]?

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: whim: probably just my crappy art. lol. "ehh thats a boob right? and um.. that is a person its attached to? are you sure?" simmilar conversations have happened. :P i have no problem with my kids seeing nudes. my kids see me draw them, they see them on elftown while i'm on here, and they see it in other places that display art. the big issue should be what the nudes are doing. if its a nude involved with another nude in an obvious sexual situation i do try to not let the kiddies see it. but nudity alone is not what i base my judgement on. good lord, you come into the world naked, it cant be all that bad or got would clothe us inutero too.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: not that likely, Kim, but if that scenario is acceptable, I wouldn't see how any normal "Am I hot?" nudey pic is unacceptable.

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: of course it all depends on the context in which you find it ;)

2005-09-29 [Avacynrei]: I believe nude could be placed as art... if its in a sexual way then it isnt

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: I understand your view hanhepi. But the fact is that the world nowadays doesnt tend to see things that way.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: XD [Whim], that's awesome... But yeah... My mom's an artist. She draws nudes. I am relatively normal. I don't think it's appropriate for, say, porn to show up in a place like this, but nudity... eh. Not a huge deal. I figure if someone decides it's an arousing image, then let them think it. If they don't enjoy it, then they can avoid it. The warnings are there.

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: I am alright with nudes in ART or drawings or wahtever, but I don't agree with nude pics here, this is a FANTASY community, plain and simple. and theres no going around it.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: I agree, han, nudity is not a horrible thing. I personally think that it wouldn't hurt anything if we were all allowed to run about naked all the time. The online time nudity is bad is when someone is too uptight about it and goes on a war against it or when sex occurs. Of course, that only brings up the question "At what age are kids allowed to know about sex?"

2005-09-29 [Kim_Lundin]: I think we can spend an eternity debating this. What is art? When is a nude picture sexual? What's the limit betwen artistic nudity and pornography?

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: You're so right [Moonknight]! That's exactly how I feel!

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: whim: heck, even i have been known to giggle at art. (David makes me laugh and laugh) it isnt that the museums are full up with nudes, but there are some there. moonknight: my statement was made to cause people to think about how absurd it would be to dissalow all nudity on elftown, as this is rather like an art museum with the artists around to explain the work.

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: haha, well I have to get going, see you later people.

2005-09-29 [Whim]: Well, if someone draws a naked elf, is that ok? It's still fantasy, Moon. How do you think all those dragons and elves and pixies reproduce? Probably by some means that could be considered pornographic if pictured here. You have to understand that nudity and sex are natural things. However, you have to also understand that our society does not like the way nature works and we work hard to eliminate nature from our lives.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: Well... Art vs. porn is quite subjective... Are breasts porn or art? Depends on how they're... displayed? On a generally fantasy-based site, bare breasts are going to show up in art on occasion. Photographs may contain them. Ample warnings should be required for those specifically avoiding the images. And they are. Hooray!

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: Yes, the warnings are good. But the impression I got from this poll is that suddenly there's not going to be a requirement of a warning for pictures with breasts showing.

2005-09-29 [Moonknight]: read what I said earlier, I dont mind nudity in art or drawings or whatever, I just dont want to see people posting pictures of them with no shirt on or something like that. im not anti sex or anti nature or anyn of that nonsense, (and now I do have to leave)

2005-09-29 [hanhepi]: i wouldnt want to run arround naked all the time as i prefer my "girls" to be lifted and seperated, and i sunburn easily. :/ i wouldnt mind people being nude all the time if they wanted though, as long as they were not doing a job beter suited to a clothed situation. (factory work, food service, mechanics etc. safty and sanitary issues mainly, and personal prefrences)

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: That's what I'm saying [Moonknight]. This poll asks if breasts should be considered nudity on Elftown. And the answer is YES. No questions asked it IS nudity and there's no way around that.

2005-09-29 [Tyrana]: I think a warning of breasts is a good idea. There are a lot of people who don't care, but there will always be people that do. I don't think they should be banned, but a warning is a polite thing to do.

2005-09-29 [Kelaria]: That's basically what I'm saying [Tyrana].

2005-09-30 [Whim]: Well, let's look at the likely history of clothes. At some point in the history of humanity, we needed clothing to protect ourselves from the elements--and sometimes eachother. We started wearing clothing for so long out of neccessity that it became widely accepted as normal. Add this to the fact that in order to have sex, we had to take the clothes off and you get a pretty good idea as to why people started associating nudity with sex. So, since clothes became normal and sex became a rare, special thing, and nudity became assoociated with sex, we now are required to wear clothes at all times all because it got cold one winter thousands of years ago.

2005-09-30 [Tyrana]: ^_^ It seems that we all essentially agree. I find it slightly amusing. Let's see what the rest of Elftown decides!

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: OKay people... The question on this page is: Are breasts nudity? The definition of nudity: "devoid of a natural or conventional covering; especially : not covered by clothing or a drape" ...the definition of Naked: "not covered by clothing : NUDE" ...Breasts are normally covered by clothing. Therefore a lack of clothing covering breasts IS nudity.

2005-09-30 [Whim]: Also, Kelaria, above the poll it mentions that this poll was brought up partially because of child pornography. I agree, naked breasts IS nudity, but it should be allowed--to a degree. For the protection of Elfpack, however, minors should NEVER be allowed to expose their breasts on this site--not even in private wikis.

2005-09-30 [Kim_Lundin]: It's true that sometime in the course of history we started to waer clothes, but I don't think sex bexame rare because of that.

2005-09-30 [To the Welkin]: Breasts are nudity... DUH... but I dont think it's bad to show them in art.

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: And therefore a warning should be placed in the event of ALL artisctic nudity. And any non-artistic nudity should be reported and removed.

2005-09-30 [Kim_Lundin]: Agreed, showing breasts is nudity if we use [Kelaria]'s example.

2005-09-30 [Whim]: Sex didn't become rare because of clothes. Sex became rare because of religion, most likely. But because sex occurs while nude (usually), nudity is associated with sex. So if we had never worn clothes for our own protection and survival, nudity wouldn't be an issue.

2005-09-30 [geekinpink]: Bottom line is this: most of the people here are kids (<18). Who here likes the thought of kids/teen boys looking at bare breasts? 

2005-09-30 [Kim_Lundin]: *yawn* I have to get to bed now, it's starting to get hard to read the text and my spelling is beginning to suffer.

2005-09-30 [Whim]: I'm on with the idea. But it just means that horny teens will continue cybering throughout the community--well...it won't help anyway.

2005-09-30 [Tyrana]: I agree with Whim... again... I also think that if young guys are looking for breasts, that there are far better places to find them. And if you don't want people looking at your breasts (which is what matters to each person the most), then just don't put them up. I have a little brother. If he looks at bare breasts... well... first of all, I wouldn't be surprised out of my mind. I also... well... wouldn't really care. It isn't hurting anyone.

2005-09-30 [Ocean Soul]: I guess there´s no way to stop weird kids from cybering.. but exhibiting less nudity would probably help them calm down a little.

2005-09-30 [Ocean Soul]: Ahhh [Tyrana], actually I agree with that a lot.. I mean, it´s not like bare breasts kill you, when you look at them as an <18 kid..

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: Well the point is. Breasts ARE nudity. And in order to be fair to everyone, warnings SHOULD be placed always. And any nudity that is NOT artistic should be reported and removed as soon as possible.

2005-09-30 [Whim]: Right, you're never going to get rid of cybering and harrassment completely, but having these things doesn't help. Truthfully, as long as people keep posting pics with them wearing sexy clothes or in sexy poses, you'll still have problems. People need to understand what kind of response they may get when they post a pic. It may be innocent enough, but if a girl wears a cute little pink shirt that shows off her belly button and accents her boobs, she's gonna get some horny guys bothering her.

2005-09-30 [Ocean Soul]: True true.. but in that case, this poll in pointless xD

2005-09-30 [Marine Wife 4 life]: I think bare breasts are beautiful when displayed in good taste... Like art..

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: Yes. This poll IS pointless. And you're right [Marine Wife 4 life].

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: The human body is a beautiful thing when displayed and appriciated tastefully

2005-09-30 [Tyrana]: Exactly. We all agree about the breasts-to-art ratio and such... And any picture at all is bound to get a response. I recently posted a picture of my eye. Just my eye... AndI've gotten at least a half-dozen messages from teenage guys... "I like blue eyes" "show me more" "RU single?"... It's unavoidable. I could just imagine what I would have to put up with if I displayed my breasts. I personally don't think it would be worth it. ^_^

2005-09-30 [Whim]: The body is a beautiful thing when displayed distastefully. If it weren't beautiful, people woudn't be getting horny over it...hehe.

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: *sigh* -_-;;

2005-09-30 [Tyrana]: Haha ^_^... Absolutely!

2005-09-30 [Whim]: indeed, Tyrana. But at least when you get messages, it's about something almost sweet like your eyes instead of how much they want to get in your pants...although you probably still get those, but you'd get more if you showed more.

2005-09-30 [Ocean Soul]: Yep.. horny messages depend on how much skin you show, but also on how popular you are :P

2005-09-30 [Guardian of Light]: thats true...man i missed alot

2005-09-30 [Tyrana]: Oh, of course. I was saying just that. I can't imagine the stuff I'd have to deal with if I posted my breasts. I can understand if girls want attention... but it just seems like so much trouble! If I'm getting messages asking for full body-shots when all I've shown is my eye... I can imagine the people that bug the girls with the provocative stuff.

2005-09-30 [Ocean Soul]: Well, you just have to post photos like mine.. I only get comments on how pretty my eyes are.. my..uhm..photoshopped eyes ;__;

2005-09-30 [Foxspike]: i take its the male populatoin that mostly Vote D

2005-09-30 [Whim]: If it makes you feel better, you have a lovely neck...lol.

2005-09-30 [Dragonite]: It'll just people to use this as a place to share phtos of their....well....breats.

2005-09-30 [Bleeding Black Rose]: I don't care if people look at my breasts..that doesn't mean that I'm going to show them to everyone but you should be allowed to if you want to and if you don't want to look at breasts and it offends you that people show them well get over it and don't go to that person's page..It's not like someone's holding a gun to your head..

2005-09-30 [Whim]: Oh, they didn't tell you? I personally go to random people's houses and hold guns to their heads and make them look at Elftown boobies. There's a whole squad of us that does this. We could be coming to your house next.

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: lol... right then... I still think there should be a warning. It's only fair. Because then we can immediately avoid the house instead of discovering the picture and having to learn by visual that we dont ever want to go to that house again.

2005-09-30 [Ocean Soul]: What I think about that.. : If you exhibit your boobs just for the sake of exhibiting them (and getting tons of horny comments), that´s pretty poor. If you celebrate them in an artsy way or whatever, anything creative, tasteful, interesting - that´s fine.

2005-09-30 [Bleeding Black Rose]: well, yeah I completely agree they should post something that warns you but I also think that if you're fine with what you got then show it!!! Don't flash us, do it seductivly though, photoshop your boobs and make them pruple!!! YES, THAT WOULD BE INGENIOUS!!

2005-09-30 [Kelaria]: Purple boobs... sounds good to me! :P

2005-09-30 [Bleeding Black Rose]: Oh, and just so Whim knows I wouldn't mind them coming to my house.. :P lol

2005-09-30 [Whim]: I just got off vacation. Don't expect me anytime soon...hehe.

2005-09-30 [Bleeding Black Rose]: lol, oh and if anyone wants to know there are boobs on my wiki, go and look...We The Strange 3

2005-09-30 [ravenholling]: well i think there is a difference between just showing your breasts for the sake of art and showing them to get the porn image and anyway your still going to get all the horny teenage boys trying to talk to you and stuff but whatever the vote ends up is cool by me

2005-09-30 [geekinpink]: Thing is that argument could be applied to harrassment: "if someone's harassing you on ET, just ignore them." I.E. the "you don't have to look at them" argument isn't a good one.

2005-09-30 [choma]: lol, not gonna bother, how is it that people get that excited over breasts??? im a breast man myself, but still i guess people (mostly males) need to show maturity, rather than an idiotic predilection to want girls after they see a picture of their breasts on elftown.....

2005-09-30 [zip]: Hm.. where did all the old comments go? Oh well. One interesting thing I notice is the "what about the children" argument, Often used by people who can't find any other justification for their position. The "children" in this case are hypothetical people who hypothetically might be harmed by some content on this site, but in reality nobody has ever seen this hypothetical child. As for how a child can be harmed by breasts.... smothered by a D cup perhaps?  Also what is up with all the snide remarks about teenage boys voting D? If I want porn I'll head over to the appropriate locations on the internet, and ET is not one of them.

2005-09-30 [zip]: Furthermore, if a girl puts up a photo of her breasts(or more likely some other, more attractive pair) on her house, 99% of the time it is to attract attention from the horny boys she will complain about afterwards. I'm all for letting them put those photos up though, that way when we visit their house we can immediately identify the attention whores and avoid them.

2005-09-30 [Tyrana]: Exactly! [zip] knows where it's at.

2005-09-30 [* ~sunset_dreams~ *]: no i dont think that you should show the female brests because it is degrading to women, and yes i am a female. If you want to see brests then go to a porno site. There are 14 and 15 year old children that have accounts on this and normally you have to be 18 years or older to get a porn movie. i just think that it is a wrong thing to have on this site.

2005-09-30 [zip]: You find your breasts degrading? How sad. Though I fail to see how you can tell every woman on this site what is and what is not degrading to her. I'm 16, and I won't get any titilation out of seeing somebodies breasts on ET, nor will I go looking for them. But if somebody wants to flashtheir anatomy, why not let them? It harms nobody.

2005-09-30 [geekinpink]: Choma, most of the people on this site are children, whether you like it or not. Zip, "children" is anyone under 18, and if you want to be more loose, anyone less than 16, which still covers the majority of this site. If you don't see anything with children seeing pornography, something's wrong with you.

2005-09-30 [zip]: Breasts are not pornography. As for children(lets say 14 and up) seeing pornography, no I see nothing wrong with that.

2005-09-30 [, , , , , , , , ,]: Nudity is ok as long as it is artistic. No one covers up all the nymphs and various other female nude fronts in the art in museums where many many young childeren go. Breasts are just skin and it's the prudishness of "modern" society that creats an unequal balance to where the under developed male mammary glands are acceptable to be seen without cover, but the larger developed mammary glands of femals are not. 

2005-09-30 [~*♥*Vampire Heart*♥*~]: this not about nudity, but why can't we have pictures that we did take/draw in our description?...i know its against the rules but how come?..we can express what we like through pictures we find on the internet...why should they not be used in our bio's?

2005-09-30 [geekinpink]: Zip, what you say would have more authority if you weren't 16 ^_^

2005-09-30 [zip]: Because they clutter ET.

2005-09-30 [, , , , , , , , ,]: you're WAY off the mark [~*♥*Vampire Heart*♥*~] pictures off the internet have copyright issues, this is about nudity, not copyrights.

2005-09-30 [zip]: Geekinpink, why is that? If my age is your only counter argument, I suggest you leave this discussion now before you embarrass yourself further.

2005-09-30 [LvSha]: warning:this house may contain bare breasts/or bare ass or whatever human organ that might make you feel offensive..XD

2005-09-30 [zip]: I think fat people shouldn't be allowed to wear shirts that show their bare fat rolls. Thats "nudity" and i find it to be obscene.

2005-09-30 [, , , , , , , , ,]: I'm for equality in expression on skin as long as it's not porn. If larger people get banned from wearing revealing clothes then stick-skinny people should be allowed to wear reveling clothes to display their skin stretched over their skeliton.  However, I believe both can be allowed as there is ALL sorts of people in the world.

2005-09-30 [Stephen]: I personally have no problem with artistic nudity, I have seen it on Elftown, and I have saw it (and worse) on Elfpack. I find it distasteful personally, but I myself do not think bare breasts are wrong. However, I do know people who do associate "boobs" with sex, and seeing them arouses them, wether it is artistic or not. Most boys I know my age do not see breasts as artistic, wether they are or not.

2005-09-30 [zip]: I think the entire human body is a work of art and beauty(well, a normal shaped body), but I can tell when a photograph is artistic or pornographic, or even both(erotica).

2005-09-30 [, , , , , , , , ,]: Define NORMAL please, zip.

2005-09-30 [zip]: Healthy, not anorexic, not obese.